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At what point is something an Exploit and not game Mechanics ?

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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 2 post(s)
Jonah Gravenstein Balius and Xanthus Traditional Gunsmiths 9459	Posted - 2013.07.02 01:11:00 - [1] - Quote Tinfoil : Red Frog Freight, its subsidiaries and rival Push Industries have pooled resources to mount an aggressive marketing campaign, in association with MiniLuv and other freighter inspectors, to drum up some more business OP, htfu, freighters are for low value high volume goods, you have plenty of other ways to move your valuables, including using other people to do it for you, collateral is your friend. This paid advertisment was brought to you by Red Frog, PushX and MiniLuv. In Eve you're a god, why have morals?
Jonah Gravenstein Balius and Xanthus Traditional Gunsmiths 9480	Posted - 2013.07.04 22:17:00 - [2] - Quote Callyuk wrote: Facts are facts but its opinion that matters Not yours or mine but the devs And the current consensus of opinion amongst Devs is that bumping for the purposes of a gank is not an exploit. If anyone wishes to challenge that consensus then they'll need to raise a petition regarding this threads particular scenario. In Eve you're a god, why have morals?
Jonah Gravenstein Balius and Xanthus Traditional Gunsmiths 9480	Posted - 2013.07.04 22:23:00 - [3] - Quote Callyuk wrote: Yea but ganks never take an hour maybe the devs will add a stipulation to the finding ? I doubt it, the devs don't have a history of catering to special snowflakes. In Eve you're a god, why have morals?
Jonah Gravenstein Balius and Xanthus Traditional Gunsmiths 9490	Posted - 2013.07.04 22:55:00 - [4] - Quote Callyuk wrote: speacial or not corn/snowflake or not i think that wat i witnessed was not intended gameplay , hence why i started this thread . Then petition it, all you've done by creating this thread is to make yourself look astoundingly bad at Eve, and tbh looking astoundingly bad at Eve is my job, not yours.. In Eve you're a god, why have morals?
Jonah Gravenstein Balius and Xanthus Traditional Gunsmiths 9581	Posted - 2013.07.05 07:24:00 - [5] - Quote Schalac wrote: This stems all the way back to the miner bumpers that thought they were cool on the forums because they could 'legally grief' because CCP was to weak of heart and mind to tell them to stop. That's quite the line in horse manure you're peddling there. The far reaching ramifications of what you think CCP should have done with the bumping mechanic would have most PvP groups up in arms. In fact the whole discussion thread about the bumping of absent miners, that led to the current consensus of opinion in CCP, was full of those very players decrying potential changes to, or the removal of, bumping. It's an oft used and quite effective, method of holding down a target while you get tackle or DPS on the field. There are counters to bumping, both for miners and other pilots, it's hardly the bumpers fault that people are lazy and can't be bothered to use them. In fact it brings to mind the numerous amusing hulkageddon style threads where miners where being told how not to get ganked, by gankers, and then ignoring the advice given, because of its source, and exploding hilariously while crying "It's so unfair". In Eve you're a god, why have morals?
Jonah Gravenstein Balius and Xanthus Traditional Gunsmiths 9583	Posted - 2013.07.05 07:52:00 - [6] - Quote Schalac wrote: I would love to hear your solutions to bumping that don't involve the automatic loss of your ship. CONCORDEKKEN is not a solution to bumping harassment. In general don't afk or autopilot, in the case of freighters don't carry stupid isk values in a ship designed for low cost high volume goods, use the ingame map for intel (miniluv aren't exactly subtle about what they do), avoid choke points (Uedema is a firm favourite), have a designated in-corp webber accompany the freighter so it can get into warp in under a week. Miner specific (off topic I know but you brought up miner bumping) use a Skiff with an AB, they're practically impossible to bump for all but the most seasoned bumpers, buy a permit from your local extortion racket, fit for survivability (a small shield booster is not adequate take note mackinaw pilots) rather than yield, set known gank groups to terrible standings etc, it's not rocket science, it's basic situational awareness and fitting your ship appropriately. Quote: I have no problems with people ganking other people, people ganking me, me ganking other people. It is the game. The problem I have is with the mechanic used facilitate the end. Not my problem, it's yours Quote: Also, most of those people that were doing miner bumping were in NPCs corps, and if not, as soon as you wardecced them they would be. So don't go all mushy for those scum. They were/are griefer parasites, afraid to actually engage in combat. That's strange, last time I checked most of them were in one alliance with the occasional independent operating under their flag. IIRC correctly the alliance in question is CODE., and they've had several wars declared against them which haven't resulted in them disbanding or corp hopping. With reference to any that are in NPC corps, of which there are probably a few, they're merely using the exact same methods of avoiding wardecs as many of the miners that they prey on. What's good for the goose, is good for the gander. In Eve you're a god, why have morals?
Jonah Gravenstein Balius and Xanthus Traditional Gunsmiths 9584	Posted - 2013.07.05 08:00:00 - [7] - Quote Victoria Sin wrote: Why are you still arguing about bumping? Mass of a Jump Freighter = 1,125,000,000kg. Mass of Rifter (eg) = 1,067,000kg The moment of inertia here is enormous for the freighter. "Bumping" in Eve is ridiculous. To be fair on the devs they've been struggling with collision detection and response for 10 years. I recommend: Physics for Dummies. I recommend you look at the effects of a MWD on mass, and then the laws regarding the conservation of energy and momentum, put bluntly a small object travelling at a high velocity can produce quite the impact on anything it hits, regardless of it's size, mass or inertia (see kinetic strikes and small arms fire) In Eve you're a god, why have morals?
Jonah Gravenstein Balius and Xanthus Traditional Gunsmiths 9585	Posted - 2013.07.05 08:27:00 - [8] - Quote Victoria Sin wrote: Jonah Gravenstein wrote: I recommend you look at the effects of a MWD on mass, and then the laws regarding the conservation of energy and momentum, put bluntly a small object travelling at a high velocity can produce quite the impact on anything it hits, regardless of it's size, mass or inertia (see kinetic strikes and small arms fire) That's not how it works in Eve. A small thing travelling with a low velocity can "bump" a massive ship. Moment of Inertia is absolutely not part of the model. Define low? Bear in mind that the Rifter you used as example, fitted with a MWD can hit anywhere between 2500 and 3000+ m/s. At that speed, mach 9(ish), it is considered hypersonic, and is about travelling at around 35% of the speed of the Space Shuttle during re-entry. Can you imagine the mess if one of the shuttles had hit the ground carrying that sort of speed? While not a relativistic speed it's certainly fast enough to make something that isn't held in orbit by both gravity and it's own rotation, deviate from it's course. In Eve you're a god, why have morals?
Jonah Gravenstein Balius and Xanthus Traditional Gunsmiths 9630	Posted - 2013.07.05 18:31:00 - [9] - Quote Schalac wrote: If bumping is combat then make it an aggressive act and flag them for retaliation. If not then it is an abuse of game mechanics and should be deemed an exploit to do so constantly while in high sec. This is only partly about escape. It is more about having a viable counter to a broken game mechanic and if CCP can't add one in then they should outlaw it and people that use this tactic in the future will have actions taken against their account. Multiple posters have posted multiple counters multiple times, but you're so set on your train of thought being the correct one that you've dismissed them as irrelevant. It's not up to you to decide what is and what is not an abuse of game mechanics, when you can prefix your character name with CCP then you can make that decision. This post was brought to you by the letters I,D,O and T. In Eve you're a god, why have morals?
Jonah Gravenstein Balius and Xanthus Traditional Gunsmiths 9648	Posted - 2013.07.05 18:46:00 - [10] - Quote Schalac wrote: And what were their counters, suicide, suicide, give up, give up, give up and counter bump. Counter bump is the only even plausible counter and it is not very effective in and of itself as it doesn't put an end to act at hand. Only maybe slightly delays it, and to be effective at counter bumping you will need atleast as many pilots that are bumping you in ships capable of bumping them. That is ridiculous that you would even have to think of making a ship for bumper protection. F-in kindergarten BS. Try reading some of the counters before posting next time, some of them are common sense, like not making yourself a target, others are a bit more involved and require friends. You obviously have selective reading trained to 5, now train reading comprehension to the same level and we might get somewhere. In Eve you're a god, why have morals?

Jonah Gravenstein Balius and Xanthus Traditional Gunsmiths 9654	Posted - 2013.07.05 19:49:00 - [11] - Quote Murk Paradox wrote: You mean it was an eye dee ten tee error? =) The 4 unique letters were used to refer to a 5 letter word where 1 of the letters is used twice. Learn to Sesame Street In Eve you're a god, why have morals?
Jonah Gravenstein Balius and Xanthus Traditional Gunsmiths 9654	Posted - 2013.07.05 20:13:00 - [12] - Quote Callyuk wrote: Multiple posts containing the exact same quote with no added content Now try adding some content instead of endlessly repeating the same post, I've seen threads get locked for a repeated question asked in posts from people who actually add content to a thread. Why shouldn't you be able to rob people of their valuables for profit?
Jonah Gravenstein Balius and Xanthus Traditional Gunsmiths 9662	Posted - 2013.07.06 19:07:00 - [13] - Quote Some of the posters in this thread are using arguments so circular that -Ç is now getting involved. Why shouldn't we be able to rob people of their valuables for profit?
Jonah Gravenstein Balius and Xanthus Traditional Gunsmiths 9662	Posted - 2013.07.06 19:15:00 - [14] - Quote fuer0n wrote: ** your suck and ** pi. you lot are just bad. give up ffs. Coherent English please, I can't read manure Why shouldn't we be able to rob people of their valuables for profit?
Jonah Gravenstein Balius and Xanthus Traditional Gunsmiths 9663	Posted - 2013.07.06 21:52:00 - [15] - Quote Callyuk wrote: Keyword here is PVP. Player v Player, unless the freighter was being flown by a bot it's still PvP Why shouldn't we be able to rob people of their valuables for profit?
Jonah Gravenstein Balius and Xanthus Traditional Gunsmiths 9664	Posted - 2013.07.06 22:42:00 - [16] - Quote Callyuk wrote: Callyuk wrote: Mallak Azaria wrote: Callyuk wrote: You guys are as hard headed as i am :) u just like me just keep throwing the same stone with the same message . I really do understand why you dont want CCP to change anything or to rule this as an Exploit because its win win for you. 1 Its always fun to kill ** 2 you get paid for it but there two sides to every story. and from my perspective i see exploiting mechanics all over this ** If we were actually exploiting anything, it would have been changed by now as a result of the last round of complaining (or the round before that). Do you really think you're the first person to explain exactly how we go about it & petition for changes? I may be the first to have ever actually recorded it . Video speaks a thousand words. You guys ganking Must be like the Yetti Monster everyone has a story to tell but no PROOF Our Logs Show Nothing Content, try adding some instead of endlessly quoting yourself with no additional text. Why shouldn't we be able to rob people of their valuables for profit?
Jonah Gravenstein Balius and Xanthus Traditional Gunsmiths 9666	Posted - 2013.07.07 02:25:00 - [17] - Quote S Byerley wrote: RubyPorto wrote: GM Karidor wrote: CCP considers the act of bumping a normal game mechanic, and does not class the bumping of another playerGÇÖs ship as an exploit. Where's the ambiguity? You're missing the point; people are complaining about the combined tactic - bumping to prevent warp, bumping off grid to delay concord, and aggressing with noob ship to prevent logoff. If anyone is missing the point it's you, the only way for any gank to be profitable/ cost effective is if the victim makes it profitable. Success isn't guaranteed, gankers play the odds on both success and loot drops. Quote: Yes, it's mostly avoidable if you pre-emptively bring a webbing ult, but that's not good gameplay; it doesn't make much sense conceptually and requiring two people to do an already boring job isn't desirable. CCP didn't respond to the stupid cost-effectiveness of miner ganking by telling them to mine in high sec with an escort. Why isn't it good gameplay? If you're moving a large shipment of cash/ jewels/ firearms through a modern city you will usually have some form of security presence. The same goes with your argument of conceptually senseless. As an example seeing as you brought up miner ganking, before they got buffed a mining vessel could be made economically undesirable to gank, but few miners bothered because it ate into cargo space and yield, thus making them worth ganking. Post mining vessel buff, the same is still true with the difference that a tank no longer eats into cargo space, even now few miners fit anything other than a token tank. I would go so far as to say that even if tank didn't eat into yield many miners still wouldn't fit a proper tank. Why shouldn't we be able to rob people of their valuables for profit?
Jonah Gravenstein Balius and Xanthus Traditional Gunsmiths 9667	Posted - 2013.07.07 03:18:00 - [18] - Quote S Byerley wrote: I'm not missing the point because I disagree with you. I'd be missing the point if I misrepresented your argument. Anyway, a load of trit makes a freighter profitable. I can't get a good figure for salvage, but it wouldn't surprise me if it covered costs. Yes, I'm stretching things a bit; gankers probably don't have another freighter on hand to carry the trit away, but the point is that it's very profitable even under advised load values. If all that trit is in one stack, there's only a 50/50 chance that any will drop, IIRC stacked items count as 1 item for loot drop purposes, the loot fairy is quite fickle like that. Quote: IDK where you live, but I've never seen an armored car with an escort. The important word there is armoured, an armoured car is specifically designed to resist an attack and in countries without draconian gun laws the guards are probably armed. A freighter on the other hand is not, and the pilot doesn't have a side arm, ergo, you bring friends to assist and provide the equivalent to both armour and side arms. Quote: Webbing is an offensive action - shortening align time was never an intentional function afaik; if there was something like an alignment boosting mod it would make a lot more sense. It's not an offensive action if it's applied by a corp member, it's clever use of game mechanics to get a ship into warp faster Why shouldn't we be able to rob people of their valuables for profit?
Jonah Gravenstein Balius and Xanthus Traditional Gunsmiths 9667	Posted - 2013.07.07 04:11:00 - [19] - Quote S Byerley wrote: Still profitable ammortized. I don't think this means what you think it means a load of minerals doesn't really equate to a sack of cash Does anyone else see the contradiction here, ignore the fact that he used amortisation in completely the wrong context. Quote: It's still an offensive action; you're just using it within the constraints of an offensive action. If it was an offensive action then Concord would respond, as Concord don't respond then for all intents and purposes it's not an offensive action, in exactly the same way as shooting a corpie isn't an offensive action. Concord punish anyone that commits an offensive action, if Concord don't punish someone for an action then it's not offensive under the existing mechanics. But please carry on with your circular and specious reasoning, because it's quite amusing watching you tie yourself in knots over a long established, much used and totally legitimate use of game mechanics. Why shouldn't we be able to rob people of their valuables for profit?
Jonah Gravenstein Balius and Xanthus Traditional Gunsmiths 9670	Posted - 2013.07.07 05:51:00 - [20] - Quote PeHD0M wrote: This trick bypass the rules of hi-sec where you can't warp scramble the neutral ship without consequences. Doesn't really matter what it is now, but CCP will be forced to change it, if a large player base in hi-sec will be effected by this. Do you remember the nanonerf Already been discussed to death in the C&P forums, CCP deemed their decision on bumping important enough to make it a sticky. Why shouldn't we be able to rob people of their valuables for profit?

Jonah Gravenstein Balius and Xanthus Traditional Gunsmiths 9670	Posted - 2013.07.07 07:05:00 - [21] - Quote RubyPorto wrote: baltec1 wrote: I would like to point out that a freighter load of trit is not a gank worthy target. You forget that these are members of the "time I spend is free" crowd, so the fact that you can, theoretically kill a freighter for under 100m is magically relevant to them. Yep some people just can't get their heads round the concept "time is money". Meanwhile I'm taking bets on the contents of the next circular post by either the OPs alt or the ~~"expert data miner"~~ idiot. Why shouldn't we be able to rob people of their valuables for profit?
Jonah Gravenstein Balius and Xanthus Traditional Gunsmiths 9720	Posted - 2013.07.07 11:12:00 - [22] - Quote Mallak Azaria wrote: Mag's wrote: I know it's a hell of a lot better than the others in this thread deciding exploit, when CCP have quite clearly said not. For the average person moaning about bumping, ~~research & reading more than a few lines~~ thinking is too hard. FTFY Why shouldn't we be able to rob people of their valuables for profit?
Jonah Gravenstein Balius and Xanthus Traditional Gunsmiths 9846	Posted - 2013.07.08 22:29:00 - [23] - Quote SmokinDank wrote: Callyuk wrote: Callyuk wrote: Posted: 7/6/2013 9:48:00 PM GM Luthor Redacted because it breaks the rules In other words GM Luthor didn't look into the petition at all it was simply a reply to the title of the petition Super Fail Ass Customer Support I have another petition in also , that is still open i will escalate it if i can . Wasting CCPs time and breaking the forum rules in one go, well done. Remind me again why we need more people like this around? So that we can laugh at them every time they post, they have no other use apart from the potential comedy threads. Why shouldn't we be able to rob people of their valuables for profit?
Jonah Gravenstein Balius and Xanthus Traditional Gunsmiths 10388	Posted - 2013.07.12 17:22:00 - [24] - Quote RubyPorto wrote: Aura used to cackle when you died. This needs to be reinstated ASAP. "Knowledge is knowing that a tomato is a fruit, wisdom is knowing not to put it in a fruit salad."

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